No one knows this, but I was interviewed for the second edition of
In Quest of Answers, the compendium of interviews by Carole Glenn with important American choral conductors, with the exception of one of the most important: Charles Hirt. I was in the second batch along with Anton and Andre, to name two of the famous ones. This second edition will be published, but I doubt it will be for a while and I would like this out there before I'm dead. Just for the hell of it. This material will be included in the second edition published maybe by Hinshaw and edited for certain by Michael Miller, who I thank for forwarding this transcript. It isn't perfectly edited, but enough so that you get the ideas, I hope.
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Interview with William
Dehning by Carole Glenn, 10 September 1994, Los Angeles.
1. What are the most important personal and
musical qualifications for a conductor?
As far as
personal qualities go, I think a sense of imagination, a sense of play, and an
interest in people are important. Although perfect pitch would help, it
would not necessarily help get our jobs done more quickly, but a sense of
rhythm and what’s inside a rhythm is very important. And, of course, a
conductor needs a good inner ear.
One’s imagination
is critical when coming up with the concept of a piece and how you want it to
sound. You have to know all the technical things of course involved in being a
musician but I think that concept, which comes from the imagination, is
the most important.
Conductors need
to be widely read or else our imaginations become sterile. Reading stimulates
the imagination.
2. What is one piece of advice that you would
offer to a beginning conductor?
They get
discouraged. The first piece of advice would be: there is a way to do
this and it’s worth pursuing and finding it. I do get tired of a certain
negativism, the “Oh, it’s tough in the field.” Yeah, it’s tough but it’s always
been tough. It’s never been easy.
What we do as a
conductor is a different sort of thing, but it is fun and richly rewarding.
I’ve never for a moment regretted becoming a conductor.
So be as prepared
as you can be. Be yourself and never forget the reason you got into this
profession in the first place. Keep that sense of joy that music gives you
and never lose your sense of play.
3. Are you aware of any difficulties that
minority and women choral conductors may have had?
Yes, of
course, in the past. The avenues have not been open to them in the past. I
think there has been a resistance—which you still see in Asian cultures to a--woman
being an authority. The room gets kind of quiet when a woman gets up to conduct
and that is still somewhat the case. I can think of a number of careers that,
had she been a male, it’s possible that she would’ve gone “farther” by now,
whatever “farther” means. And I think this has been true in the past but I no
longer think it is and I’m happy to say that. [Boy! Did I ever get this one wrong!]
4. What should be the overall objectives of a
choral program?
That
depends on the arena, whether school, church, community, or professional
choir. Regardless of the arena, the main objective of any program has to
involve experiencing as much superb choral literature as possible; unquestionably proven, superb music.
We all need to
experiment with the trivial now and then in part to remind ourselves what the
truly excellent music is, in part because it’s easy and fun. We also have
an obligation to build our audiences. Taking it further than that, our
goal should be the furtherance of the culture. Choral music is positioned to do
that, more than any other artistic expression, with the exception of
literature.
5. Are choral conductors better prepared today
than they were twenty years ago?
Without
question, choral conductors today are better prepared than I was in 1970 –
technically, especially. The world is smaller than it was 20 years ago and as a
result, we’re hearing more music, and this is all to the good. We are also
hearing the music of other countries to a far greater degree.
Schools are
turning out well-prepared people. I know that we are at USC, and I know a
number of other schools that are. There are more people than there are
jobs at present, but that’s the state of the profession, not the
training.
There are
recordings of almost anything nowadays and that is a tremendous aid to the
conductor. In the bad old days, we used to have to figure it out at the
keyboard and just sit there and kind of play through it in some manner to get
an idea of how a piece went, you know, even if we were lousy pianists as I am.
I don’t know that recordings are necessarily a blessing, though. In many
ways they’re a curse because there is less development of and reliance upon
the inner ear that I spoke of in Question 1.
6. What do you do to preserve the vocal health
of your singers?
Of course,
it is very important to study the voice yourself. I’m surprised at how many
pianists are in front of choruses who have no idea of how the instrument works.
You don’t have to be a good singer yourself, but you should have an
understanding of how difficult it is to sing a high F# in a work by Strauss or
somesuch. The ability to reach singers through the imagination is critical to
the functioning of an effective rehearsal. One must take the voice into account
with the plan and pace of rehearsals. I’m surprised by how many
conductors I observed who ask their singers to sing something fast and forte
three times in a row. Take it down the octave, or just rehearse the
rhythm. Be aware that, in a one or two hour rehearsal, a soprano only has
so many high A-flats in her voice – only so many. Don’t use them up on
drills and sterile repetition. Be cognizant and empathetic to the
singers, as a singer.
7. How would you compare the quality of
published choral music today with the music published two decades ago?
It’s far
worse. There is so much junk being published. To a degree, this is our
fault. For one thing, good music is not as readily available and is often much more
expensive. The expense is attributable to two things. The first is
“Theft,” plain theft. We’ve stolen music by copying it. Many people have been
flagrant about it and it is criminal. Publishers have to make money so
they publish what is most accessible and in many cases, to be honest, it’s not
good music. The second reason is decline in what we perceive our audience's
tastes to be. Audiences want to hear superb music done well.
They always have and I think they always will. The third reason is that
our own taste has deteriorated.
Sometimes we have
tremendous problems getting good music because it hasn’t been selling. I
think that much of this poor music is published to keep singers in programs,
and I certainly understand the reason for that. But I think the best will
always sell. I applaud publishers who continue to try keep publishing
good music.
8. What can be done about the elimination of
music in many school districts?
This is
both a cultural and political problem. It would be solved immediately
if the United States government said, “The Arts will be taught in schools, now shut
up, and don’t argue.” If the government would have the courage to say that this
is what should be done, and the government supported The Arts, as is the case in
virtually every other civilized country in the East and the West, that would
immediately raise cultural expectations of children. But barring that, I’m
afraid since our government is a bit timid and only listens to the vocal
and rich people, the parents will simply have to demand that The Arts be taught.
Then politicians will listen. It must be demanded. What parents demand, the
school boards tend to give.
9. What are your thoughts about the
prohibition of sacred music in some public school districts.
I think
sacred music ought to be approached the same way as history, science, world
religions, or social studies. Western music is great art and needs to be taught
in that way and for that reason. It so happens that much of this great art is connected to texts of
religions. If the text is from the Koran, is universal and speaks universal
truths, it should be done. Confucianism, Buddhism, Fundamentalism, I mean,
what’s wrong with Amazing Grace? It’s a Scottish melody, by the
way, and is great art and should be approached that way. I am for separation of
church and state, but great art doesn’t have to be taught as dogma. A
Madonna and Child can be a beautiful work of art regardless of what it
represents and what a person believes.
Martial arts are
taught, for instance, first as art forms, not as means of defense, or
especially offense. We in choral music have this problem of course more
than orchestras and bands. But, just as we want the religious right to leave us
alone in regards to secular music, we want the liberal left to leave us alone
when it comes to sacred music. I’m afraid that teachers are going to have to be
the ones who decide, and both the right and the left are just going to have to
be quiet.
10. What aspects of music are of
particular importance to you now?
I think the
process itself has become more important over time. I love rehearsing and I
always have. It’s still a thrill, yes, to perform for 2000 people – though that
doesn’t happen often anymore. But the process of taking just a bit of noted chaos and a bunch of human
beings who don’t have any idea about each other and putting those two together
is just a miracle. Performances, yes, they are fun, but right in the middle of
the rehearsal process when it all starts to come together, just after the
beginning, and before the polish goes on- when it’s no longer chaotic, you
watch the “ah-ha” moments happen. Again, its people and music and 'getting there' that
I enjoy. I enjoy the ride, as JT said.
11. What changes in choral philosophy and
procedures have you noticed in the past twenty years or so?
I see more
of the emphasis on the medium than the message. I’m surprised at that. I
once read something that Charles Hirt wrote to Theron Kirk over 20 years ago,
saying, “We are to the point now where we have purchased our instrument and we
are now exploring the music.” I don’t think that’s as true in this country as
it maybe could be. I hear a lot of perfectly blended, perfectly in-tune choruses
that fail to get inside the guts of the piece. I’m amazed and I marvel but I am
not moved. I’d rather hear something that is rough around the edges but really
gets inside the composer’s head, when you can tell that the performers get it
and they communicate that to the audience. Yes, I like to hear choirs in-tune,
perfectly together, and perfectly lovely—that’s very nice and I always enjoy
that. Occasionally, I come close to that with the groups I conduct but it’s not
really what I’m after.
I also have a bit
more of an acceptance of the straight tone sound than previously. To get
many difficult 20-century pieces perfectly in-tune, you need to leave the
vibrato out… that’s when the chords and clusters really sparkle. There
are times when, at a certain dynamic level, I have asked for that, never at a
forte, but when mezzo forte or less.
I thought we
fought this battle with our voice teachers 20 years ago and apparently it’s
coming around again. And I think, to a certain degree, that this is an influence
of European choirs, especially Northern European. A lot of Americans have
been over there to study and I think they are hearing that sound again and
liking it. You also often hear that straight tone in Asia and Korea where
they really sing foot to the firewall.
In modern music,
and in very old music, it works. I think that’s quite a change, but I
think we need to be extremely careful about its use with young students. You work with pros, demand it, fine. They’re paid and they know how to do it
without harm.
12. What trends do you see for the future?
Recently there’s
been a trend where the importance of music in the schools is falling away. I
see that for the foreseeable future, too. What has replaced that scene,
as we all know, are tremendous children’s choirs in the community, tremendous
youth choirs. This is a very European concept. The choruses in European
schools--I know the German schools firsthand--are really not very good but they
learn how to analyze Schubert melodies, by golly, and they learn chord
progressions at a very early age. When they leave schools they, then as adults,
sing as informed musicians. And so it’s the church choirs, and community
choirs, and the semiprofessional groups that are very prominent there.
I’m seeing that
happening here, especially with children’s choirs and there’s a tremendous
burgeoning of community chamber choirs all over the place. I’m glad to see it
with the children involved because we are tending to lose them, of course, in
the schools, especially in junior high and high school. Unfortunately
too, what that means, is that those who can afford to pay get musical
experiences, while those who cannot afford it, don’t. It’s unfortunate
and sad, and it doesn’t bode well for the classroom community. But I don’t see
that changing in the immediate future, I simply don’t see it changing.
13. What are your favorite musical compositions
and why?
That would
be hard to say. I’m very lucky that I’ve done a lot of music that I love. If
someone said, “You can only do one piece for the rest of eternity, pick one,”
that might be Bach’s Singet dem Herrn. I like music— and I don’t
know how to say this—in which “gimmick” is not at all obvious, and in which the
craftsmanship that expresses the text, and which stays true to itself; not
quoting anyone else. The music should meet the essence of the text and
speak well to the singer. This is not to say that I don’t love a piece of
schmaltz now and then, I sure do. Some schmaltzy pieces are exactly what
I mentioned; they can be true to themselves and express the text
beautifully. Ultimately, the craftsmanship has to be part of it.
75% of the time, I program music which I know is
unquestionably superb. Of course part of that, too, is because I have been a
teacher all my life and it’s my job to do that for my singers. About 25% of the
time I experiment with “fluff and folk” stuff because that’s fun, too.
14. How did you happen to make music your
career?
I don’t
think “happen” is the right word. It was a conscious decision I made when I was
a little bit older and only after I’d been miserable studying engineering and
business and god knows what else.
I thought that
music would be better than misery and I was right. I was 21 when I began to
really study music, so I came to music through the back door and I’ve struggled
to catch up ever since. I’m still catching up.
I had played
instruments and sang since I was ten. Music always moved me. It was
something I enjoyed and through which I met a lot of nice people, so I thought,
“Well, I might not make money, that is true, but I will enjoy my days and enjoy
getting up in the morning.” And that’s still true.
15. Which conductors have been an inspiration
to you?
This is
really easy. In chronological order, and for different reasons, Charles
Hirt in the late 60s, Helmuth Rilling in the mid 70s, and John Alldis in the
early 80s. I was inspired by these men and in very different spheres and
for different reasons.
As far as the
orchestral sphere, Erich Leinsdorf. He wrote a book that came out just
after I’d seen him conducting. I was in Europe observing him, sitting back by
the string basses. I was really inspired. He showed no pretense,
was utterly clean, and yet beautiful. That was one of the few times I’ve
seen the players applaud the conductor after a performance. They were playing
Debussy’s La Mer, and I think something as prosaic as Peter and the
Wolf, and if the players are going to applaud for Peter and the Wolf
and La Mer, that conductor is on the ball.
I was also
inspired by observing Georg Solti in late 60s. Those five people, but I
still have to go back to Charles Hirt and the influence he had on me,
especially in terms of choral sound. His was vibrant and with vibrato. He
had good voices at USC and he let them sing. It was a very vital,
exciting sound that still rings in my ears. I still have trouble
accepting the use of straight tone.
16. How does choral music in the United States
compare with choral music in other countries?
We are less
nationalistic and more universal in repertoire than most European countries.
Asians are almost as universal and program a lot of music. If you hear a
German choir, you’ll primarily hear German music. If you go to France, you
primarily hear French music. I wish we did more American music today in
this country than we do because it is there. We are less parochial in
this country and I think that’s good. I think we are freer and more soloistic
with the use of the voices in the ensemble, and I think that’s good, too. They
tend to do less cheap music in other countries than we do, though.
17. How may music serve as a force for
understanding between diverse groups of people?
I think
there are times when we all ask, “Is what I’m doing important?” There are
times when it might not seem to be. We don’t make $30 million a
year. Rock stars do. We aren’t looked up to as heroes.
Athletes are. But the answer is always a resounding “Yes.” Music is
one of the only things which involves not only the body, but the brain and the
spirit.
Let’s get this
straight, the greatest athletes are artists, too, just as some great musicians
are great athletes. We can each participate in choral music at some level.
It is important because by involving ourselves with something greater than
ourselves, as we with great literature, and music—especially choral music, by
participating, we become better ourselves even if it’s only for a moment, it’s
important.
I can’t think of
anything more important than becoming a better human being, or at least more
fulfilled, and music can do that, just as great literature does.
Reading a great
book can be a lonely experience but you come out fulfilled, you come out
better, and you know it. Ultimately, it is just you and the author.
Choral music is not lonely. We do it with other people and we come out not only
better ourselves, but we’ve helped others become better, too. I can’t
think of anything more important--except food, water, and rest--than becoming a
better human being.
18. Why is music important to humankind?
I just know
it always has been. It’s more than the cliché of a common language, it’s
a common experience. This is especially so in choral music— a common experience.
Even if the language is different, you’re still using one instrument that is
the same as everyone else’s. It is not like one person having a fiddle
and the other having a flute. Yes, the sopranos are different, and Lord
knows tenors are, too. But it’s all the same instrument. It’s the
one God gave us, and we all have a voice. Choral music speaks immediately
to whoever is making it. I think this is because singing is so close to
speech, the element of human language. It is also so close to laughter
and tears— it is all the same in any language.
I once ran across
a quote by Hindemith: “People who make music together cannot be enemies at
least while the music lasts.” I think that’s true. We can become enemies again
after rehearsal, but not while the singing is going on.
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